Category: accessible Devices
Maybe this is just from a bias towards the IPhone, being a user myself. But earlier I was participating in a discussion on the Audyssey gaming list about the possibility of Liam Erven of L-Works developing games for the IOS platform now that he's decided not to develop for PC anymore. Needless to say that would create problems for those who, for whatever reason, can't or prefer not to use touch screens. Well there was one member in particular who not merely expressed dislike for IPhones and IPads (which alone I can respect even if I can't actually understand it, but he also said that in his words he thinks that "adding voiceover to a touch screen device is just another corrupt
twisted pro sighted business' way of conning the law and getting away with discrimination."
I need hardly point out that that last coment hardly seems logical. If all they wanted was to con the law it seems to me all they would have had to do was develop a Mack version Microsoft Narrator, which at least in my opinion is about as half-assed as you can get. Half the time I couldn't even get the damn thing to work evenif I wanted to. So wen I read is coments I was like what the heck? I can respect your not liking touch screens but I don't see how successfully proving that such a device can be made accessible would be conning the law.
I think there are just some people who will dislike something merely via hearsay, and will form very strong opinions about them without even experiencing the thing they now so suddenly dislike. I don't even understand this person's reasons for their dislike of touch-screens. Frankly, I think what Apple is doing is great, being able to get a number of devices which are accessible right out of the box. I guess some people think that having a screen reader as a third-party add-on is the only way to do things since it's the way it's always been done.
I've been participating in that discussion too. I was the one who talked about not wanting to spend half an hour or more setting up my voicemail when I could normally do it in 2 minutes. I'm really not in a hurry to throw away money for something that I probably won't get the hang of. With that said, I do think that person's comments were out of line. I just think it's the natural advancement of technology at work. People always want bigger and better things. Touch screens just happen to be the new craze. That doesn't bother me one bit. Just the same, I should be respected for my decision to not use a touch screen device. Most people do, but every now and then I run into an idiot who tells me that I'm deliberately holding back the progression of technology by not accepting touch screens. Oh please. I would certainly hope I, just one person in an increasingly small minority of people who prefer not to use them, don't have that kind of power.
Like I said, I can respect simply not liking touch screens, but the fact is that the way things are going I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing more and more touch screens on those little ATM machines you use in a grocery store if you pay for your purchases with a debit card. As for not liking things based simply on hearsay, this fellow actually tried the IPhone for about two weeks, which I personally don't feel is really long enough to warrant giving up but it wasn't my choice. I didn't take issue with that so much as his attitude that Apple's decision to simply attempt to make the touch screen accessible rather than market a separate IPhone with actual buttons was an attempt to con the law and get away with discrimination. When I pointed out that if that was really their intention all they would have had to do was develop a Mack version of Microsoft Narrator he said that's what they did. So then I asked him if he would rather have had it work just the way a touch screen is supposed to work, meaning that he would activate every single item he touched right away before learning what it did, he said that the delay involved in highlighting and then double tapping an item was unacceptable since sighted folks don't have to deal with it.
Not having an accessible touch screen is way worse than having a tiny (if it even exists at all) delay when you tap an item.
I agree. And while I do think you're right about touch screens becoming the norm, the fact is, keyboards aren't completely fazed out yet. If, and this is a big if depending on money, personal reasons, and other things, I do attempt to use an IPhone again, I'm going to buy a bluetooth keyboard to make the transition easier. But even then I don't see that happening in the near future, not unless my current phone decides to take a dump, which I would certainly hope it doesn't.
And that would be a good idea. I've considered it myself at least as far as the typing since I don't know if you could place a call using one. That'd be interesting to find out though.
I don't think there is any law that actually sttes that electronic devices must be accessible.
Section 508 deals with devices purchased by the government for government employees, Section 504 deals with education and devices used in education. The ADA Title II refers to retail and publica ccommodation, but not to electronic devices, per se. Just look at the accessibility of Windows Phone 7 operating system (Nokia Lumia phones) ... yes, you guessedit, no screen reading, no screen reading support, no plans to even make one available. Android has been mostly a disappointment, given that Googlehas had 4 years and endless billions of dollars to properly implement accessibility. They've done quite a bit, on some devices is works quite well, but it still is a lot worse than what Apple has done (and I am not an Apple fan in that sense of the word).
There's no delay selecting and double tapping an item, try to find it through a series of key presses and see what is faster (for instance to find contacts and activate them on a Nokia E or N phone vs touchscreen, or tools/profiles). I wish there was more of a selection of feature phones (basic phones with basic apps that are accessible with a keyboard). I think there is a big market for them, and I'd use one even, when I want to avoid being reached via email, sms, Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, Skype or some other way. But Apple has done a great job with iOS accessibility. They fail, to my mind, at more advanced accessibility on OSX (PDF support is non-existent, calculator/Excel support is miserable, PowerPoint or Impress suppot likewise, no programming environment accessible), but the basic facts and the entertainment apps ar doing good. Apple has done more for accessibility than any other mainstream software manufacturer, that's a fact. Developing for iPhone and iDevices is frustrating in fact, due to Apple's total and utter control of the application ego system and they're very closed and non-helpful developer support, but from the end user perspective iOS is prety amazing.
That's the point though. The fact that you have to tap an item first and then double tap it to actually activate it is, in this user's mind, an unacceptable delay, even i the IPHone itself isn't slow to respond. And I'm guessing he's never really read te ADA or he'd have realized that Apple wasn't actually breaking the law.
That person is just looking for something to latch his absurd opinion onto in an attempt to make it valid. That delay in the apple products is hardly a delay at all. How idiot ic of him to try and make accessible touch screens into some sort of a conspiracy. I've always been a buttons kind of girl, but I think it's amazing and wonderful that they've finally figured out a way to make touch screens accessible to us. Now no company really has a valid excuse for not making their's accessible to us. I just got an IPhone, and while it takes some getting used to because I like buttons as I've said, I love the convenience of being able to just walk into a store and pick up a high end product that everyone else has access to even though I'm blind.
Yeah, I thought the argument he was using about the delay was absurd too. When I was testing it out, delay was the least of my problems, in fact it was one of the fastest devices I've ever seen. As I said, I did agree with him about being slowed down by not knowing where things are on the screen, but I still would never think it was a conspiracy.
I tend to use a flicking motion left and right when navigating through the menus and even the keyboard. It's slow admittedly but it works for me. I've never been able to get the hang of touch typing. As for autocorrection I actually turned it off not long after getting my phone becauuse i found that it got things wrong more often thannot. And anyway if I misspell a word it still alerts me to that.
Um.... I am not a Iphone user, "yes my android has a full touch screen with no slide out keyboard" it does have a optical track pad, so to flat out dislike touch screens, "say there conning the law" is crazy talk. Try playing strike night with a keyboard and let me know how far you will get!, it can not be done because its a touch based screen but still I like the fact i can actually get the feel of tossing a puc in this instants for the game. To sum this up, IOS, android and the inaccessible windows7 phones all have touch screans and there not going any where any time soon. "I love my touch screen on the phone I have and would not traid it back for a older windows moble phone or simbion phone with buttons. Ugg!!!!
Nor would I, even if they were to suddenly start supporting te old Nokia 6682 phone again, which back then I wouldn't have given up for the world. In my opinion at least that was a damn good phone. But I agree with the assessment that the proven accessibility of IOS touch screens officially leaves other companies that make such devices without excuses not to make an effort to accomodate us. Just imagine someday being able to use those touch screen debit card machines without sighted help.
are you kidding me really? how stupid is that argument saying that the accessibility of the screen on iPhones is a way to calm the law. that is so absurd. I have an iPhone and let me tell you that after my first purchase, i am not going back to a standard phone. the iPhone has been easy on so many levels and the best part of it is that it replaces several gadgets that i would have had to spend thousands or even hundreds of dollars on just to accomplish simple tasks like identifying currency, independently setting an alarm clock, checking the weather, email, gps, finding information on a product including directions, etc. Let alone asking sighted trustworthy people to check if i have exact change and fold money in certain ways which i often forget the minute i do it. In fact, people nowadays are very dishonest and could indeed be misleading. Sometimes you can be cheated without even realizing it unless you have a trusty friend when going out. It's like for instance, if i fold 20's horizontally and 5's vertically and 10's in half and lay 1's flat, chances that once I get back change, i'll forget to do so or get too confused by impatient crowds. . This leads to disorganization of course. the key in that case is to be consistent but the drawback is that it doesn't always work that way because people rush you and you don't have time to actually fold the money. sometimes cashiers fail to tell you the change you're getting even if you do ask.
So, in that sense the iPhone helps me a lot because when i get home i can organize my money in my wallet with more patience rather than doing so at a supermarket among other things. before the iPhone i would always have my best friend punch braille on the money with a pocket money brailler which i always keep as a low-tech device because you never know when your phone decides to act up.
I have it on my keys and it serves me well in many occasions. Got the thing for $3 when i went to a national convention at the exhibit hall for independent living aids along with a backup cane which i always carry in my school bag after someone decided to break my cane and leave me stranded in the middle of nowhere on campus. I prefer to do things myself being that i have had several experiences with dishonest people although it never involved ripping me off thankfully.
I was reading about a new bar code scanner that's supposed to be much more affordable than, say, the ID Mate. I'm not sure about the quality yet, since it's a fairly new product, but I'll definitely be keeping an eye out for reviews or podcasts that demonstrate its use. I forget the exact price but I think it was somewhere around $250. You hook it to your computer, and download a database from directionsforme.org onto the device, and then you can use it to scan products. So there are other options besides the IPhone for those of us who don't want one. I also have an IBill and that thing is smaller even than an IPhone. I just slip it in my purse and take it wherever I go. It's been accurate and unobtrusive, considering that it can vibrate rather than speak the denomination of the bill out loud.
Let me throw in the mix here for the topic of touch screens, Icecream sandwidge's explor by touch does not have you double taping the phone at all. You explore the screen looking for the Icon you want to activate and lift once and just tapping once to activate the item. Its a learning curve but I can asure you those who have a ICS phone and are blind get the hang of it.
I for got to add to those, who have a gingerbred android phone can use the eye's-free keyboard and navagate the OS with out a physical trackpad or keyboard as long as the app or the OS allows it to happen. Most days I just use my touch screen instead of my track pad. I use the track pad when its necessary.
It's clear that some people don't like touch screens and that's fine. But the fact of the matter is that they're not going to go away any time soon. I've used an iPhone for the last couple of years and I'm never going back to a phone with actual buttons on it. The iPhone is probably the easiest phone I've ever used in my life. So just because this person doesn't like touch screens on phones doesn't mean that he has to form these ridiculous, absurd opinions like the ones posted above, because that honestly makes him look like an ass.
I agree there. But I'm a firm believer in alternatives. If people don't like touch screens, that preference should be respected, and they would do well to seek out alternatives, so that the companies that are making those products know there's still interest beyond what's hip and cool. Because, to be completely honest, touch screen devices seem like a fad to me. they're all the rage, and that's why a lot of people use them. Not all, and I understand that even if they are a novelty at the moment, they are revolutionary. But if you're going to act like an ass and make off the wall statements like this guy did, you forfeit your right to that respect. But if he hates touch screens so much, what he should do is stop bitching and find something else that works for him, as I've done.
Oh yeah, definitely. That's pretty much the point I was trying to make in my last post. If you don't like using touch screens, then yes, go ahead and use your BrailleNote, PAC Mate, Braille Sense, or whatever makes you comfortable. It's probably a good idea to learn a little bit of some touch screen stuff, because I have a suspicion that they are going to be more prevalent in our society as we dig more and more into the future of technology. I'm not saying throw away the note takers or anything like that, but it's just a good idea to get familiar with a touch screen device in case you need it. That's just my two cents.
Great topic!
The iphone sounds interesting everytime I hear about it.
Hopefully one of these days I will have the oppertunity to give the phone a try.
I like the button phones, but I sure am willing to change to a touch screen device.
Again, great posts!
I hear you. I did try out an IPhone, as I said, and if I really had no choice but to go back to it, I'm sure I would adjust. It's just that until the day comes when there really are no other devices besides touch screens, I think I'll stick with what makes me most comfortable.
Well Glory if you have an AT&T store in your city you can go in there and ask them to set you up at one of their IPhone displays. They'll turn VoiceOver on for you and you can play with the interface as long as you want. I did that several times when I was debating whether the next phone I purchased would be an IPhone. It'll definitely take some getting used to but if you're patient and persistent it might just turn out to be the best phone you've ever used. I myself bought an IPod Touch before I got an IPhone since that's another good way to get familiar with how the IOS interface works since it's got allthe same Apps te IPhone has except for the phone part.
Keep in mind, if you want to have a touch screen, and a keyboard, there is all ways the android rout. Some say its not that accessible, I beg to differ, and so does a lot of us on the eyes-free mailing list from google. Its different from IOS, that I will give ya, but not accessible, no., try again. Its my main intertainment, the only phone I have and it rocks.
Thankyou BryanP2
I will look in to it when I get back on my feet financially.
I have heard nothing but good things about the iphone.
Sorry I for got to add, you can go to a Verizon store and play with the samsung galaxy nexis, for t-mobile, the HTC 1 S, keep in mind you can not read the Icons on the home screan because of the HTC sense but the home screan can be changed when you get the phone. Outside of the home screan everything else can be red on the HTC one phone.
Personally, I would be really wary of testing a phone out at the store. When I first signed up for At&t, I was considering getting an IPhone. However, I made it very clear that I wanted to test it out before buying it. The guy acted cool with that at first, he explicitly said several times that it was no problem. so we get down to signing the papers to set up my contract, and after all that was done, he said he couldn't let me try an IPhone because Voiceover would need to be activated for me, and they couldn't do that because once Voiceover was turned on, they could no longer use it to show to other customers. I said surely if they can turn Voiceover on, they can turn it off again, but that guy was trying to make a quick sale. He turned Voiceover on for me all right--after I paid for the phone, even though I wasn't at all sure it was what I wanted. Then this girl came over because the guy didn't really understand how Voiceover worked, which is understandable, but she had helped blind people in the past when they bought IPhones. She was nice, and she tried to show me some basics, but by that point I had already gotten screwed out of a fair trial run, so I got pretty frustrated with the damn thing. I took it home, and kept it for 2 days, then took it back after I discovered that I couldn't set up my voicemail. That's a basic feature of the phone. It should take nowhere near the time I wasted trying to set it up. So, needless to say, even though I said I would try it again if I really had no choice, I'm extremely wary of both touch screens and At&t personnel now because of that experience.
Well, you've now got a choice between At&T, Verizon, and Sprint. And I can understand why you are weary of using a touch screen. It's definitely a learning curve for a lot of people.
Hmm... try t-moble if its in your area, see if they will let you play with a samson galaxy s III or an htc s 1. Both of these phones come with talkback already installed in the phone, yes both are touch screens. You might like touch by explore better then the way voiceover handles the screen. Had to toss that out there for someone just looking for a new device.
Oh, crap, I also for got to say, you could wait until more icecream sandwige slider phones come out so you have a hardware keyboard and a touch screen on one device.
wel at first i didn't like the i phone. but then i got to try it out and i liked it. at first i didn't liked it because i thought i would have to struggle to get a accesible sofwhere witch i thought it was going to cust 100's of dolares but then i found that that it had voice over included and i've bin using it ever sins then. i wouldn't go back to my old nearlly accessible lg rumor 2 witch i had verry limeted access
FR it sounds to me like you just got bad luck with the particular rep you got. He obviously didn't consider the fact that tey can turn VO off as easily as he turned it on.
I have use a droid phone for a while now. I personally don't like to use the touch screen that much. How ever, if I have too I'll use it. I am pretty comfortable using both, touch screen and keyboard. That in my opinion is a great advantage of using a phone with both options on it. I like to use the keyboard. I am a pretty fast typer on the keyboard, but not with the touch screen. The phone that I use is the droid 3 wich comes with a slide out keyboard. It has been a great phone for me. I am going to be upgrading here in a few days. I am going to try out the iPhone, but I think I will be sticking to droid. I am going to be getting the droid 4 most likely. I love these boards. Keep them going